Posts by Juan Viejo2

8

Help please

by PhillipThomas in

jw
friends

hello...been baptized for about a year and a half...just aware now...they are watching me...possibly even now...help me!!

!i'm too afraid to say too much here...they could even be here disguised as ex-jw's to watch for people like me...how do i get help??

who do i trust?

Juan Viejo2

Phillip Thomas - Just walk away. Say nothing. Move to a new area of town or to another city and just disappear. Eventually, they will all forget you ever existed and will move on.

The "truth" is that none of the Witnesses really give a damn about you. After you have disappeared for a few months they will forget about you and they will forget your name. If they do cross your path at a store or other venue and say something to you, just speak to them as you would a neighbor or casual acquaintance. Acknowledge them, wish them well, say good-bye, and then move on and do your business. Don't engage them in a long conversation or any kind of debate.

The reality is that you will be better off and feel relief within just a few months. Visting here and watching ex-JW videos on YouTube will bolster your confidence. Just think of your time as a JW as an event like having a disease when you were a kid. You missed some school for a few days or a couple of weeks...Your friends and other classmates avoid you for a few days because you've been ill and maybe have "cooties." Then they just ignore you and eventually you just become another person they pass in the hallways. You are nothing to them - and they are nothing to you.

I found it interesting that a few years later when I did cross paths with old JW friends they were often friendly at first and ask about me and my family. Conversations were as they would be with any other past friend or acquaintance. If they ask you what Kingdom Hall you go to, just say "I don't go any longer. It was nice running into you - but I need to move along. Hopefully, we can chat again someday." They will actually appreciate that you did that because that does not force them to challenge you - because they really do not know your actual status. Maybe you were just in a hurry.

On the other hand, some ex-JWs take the opportunity to explain ("give a witness") to someone who they come across. They will often say something about their leaving and let their old friends know that they "finally came to realize that the Watchtower was not what it claimed to be - and "the Truth" is not really "the truth." And then just move on down the road. You might plant a seed in their damaged brains that could lead to them reappraising their own situation later on.

JV

21

Those Who Can't get the OXYGEN Episodes

by Newly Enlightened in

someone has uploaded both episodes to google drive.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1l0ubvtriw6ytinnenmsmxpefotphconi/view.

Juan Viejo2

I watched both episodes on an Oxygen repeat version on my local Xfinity service. Good video, but audio was out of sync with the video. Not to mention commercials every ten minutes. But still an excellent documentary that features Trey Bundy at his best. He is such a pro - and yet is very relaxed and well organized in his approach to reporting.

JV

55

Unique JW Phrases 101

by Solzhenitsyn in

what unique to jws phrases do you remember?

something fun for those of us taught to speak an entirely unique and pure language.

there have been posts in the past in this forum but perhaps some have new ones after having kept up with jehovah's chariot as the light gets brighter.

Juan Viejo2

"The Truth" as a reference name for the Watchtower (the organization). That is the equivalent to "The Church" as used by Catholics. The phrase used to describe the religious organization does relate directly to the teachings of the religion because "old truth" and "new truth" are all-encompassing terms referring to what was published in Jehovah's Witnesses' books, magazines, convention speeches, and audio-video productions. "Old Truth" is what they taught for some years and that was eventually replaced with "New Truth" in new printed publications or in video productions.

If what they are teaching is clearly false or outdated (i.e., "Armageddon coming in 1975" replaced by "we don't know when it is coming, but Jehovah's punishment of old systems of things, non-believers, apostates, and JWs who are not 100% dedicated to the preaching work as directed and taught by the Watchtower, is clearly on the horizon." Please note that the horizon(s) never changes if you are not moving. But if you are consistently changing your position or going in the wrong direction - then the effective horizon changes with you.

So the more the Watchtower "adjusts" its policies and teachings - then that JW horizon just keeps on moving and changing - and so does JW "truth." That results in their "truth" being always in a state of change - and therefore unreliable.

JV

24

Jehovah's Witnesses Came to My Neighborhood

by Juan Viejo2 in

for nearly two years i have not seen any jehovah's witnesses going door to door in my neighborhood.

that was not the case when my wife and i first moved here (north central oregon).

in fact, our neighborhood was visited at least once every 4 to 5 months - even in the coldest winter months.

Juan Viejo2

nowwhat? ----

I drop by every so often, but most of the time I am busy painting the walls and carrying out the trash at WatchtowerDocuments.org and helping Barbara Anderson with an occasional YouTube video. I pop in here to see if there are any exciting conversations going on. I do my best to not regenerate any negative feedback if possible.

But thanks for asking. I always enjoy a brief visit here just to catch up. Currently, I am working on a couple of Kindle books about (1) my growing up as a JW kid, and (2) a look back at the Menlo Park Kingdom Hall takeover scandal.

Life is good and I'm not really interested in being in the middle of a lot of argumentive blather.

Hope all is well with you, nowwhat - and for everyone else that visits here as well.

JV

24

Jehovah's Witnesses Came to My Neighborhood

by Juan Viejo2 in

for nearly two years i have not seen any jehovah's witnesses going door to door in my neighborhood.

that was not the case when my wife and i first moved here (north central oregon).

in fact, our neighborhood was visited at least once every 4 to 5 months - even in the coldest winter months.

Juan Viejo2

For nearly two years I have not seen any Jehovah's Witnesses going door to door in my neighborhood. That was not the case when my wife and I first moved here (north central Oregon). In fact, our neighborhood was visited at least once every 4 to 5 months - even in the coldest winter months. As far as I can tell, Jehovah's Witnesses seem to have gone out of business in our city.

At one time there were at least four (and maybe 5) active Kingdom Halls with multiple congregations assigned to each location. The primary hall is still located in the southwest area of our city. At one time there were at least 4 congregations using that hall and there was a co-located residence used by either a circuit overseer or a district overseer (or both) located at one corner of the property.

There were also at least three other Kingdom Halls located in the city. I attended a Memorial meeting about ten years ago when my wife was out of town visiting her ill parents. The Kingdom Hall I visited was new and located in the northwest part of town (most distant from my home). The night I visited that hall and attended the early Memorial service the hall was quite crowded (my guess is about 125-150 people). Right after that meeting the Hall was cleared because a Spanish language congregation was taking over and would celebrate the Memorial - so the parking lot had to be cleared quickly to make room. My guess is that 250-300 people attended the Memorial at that hall that night. And this was not the main hall for our city. My guess is that three Memorial meetings were held at the main Hall mentioned in the previous paragraph. Two other Halls also existed at the time - but they mostly served foreign language congregations (Spanish - Asian).

Now there are only two Kingdom Halls left in this city. The primary one described above appears to have two English and one foreign language congregations. The Circuit overseers' house is gone and some of the property has been sold and transferred to attached neighbors. The parking lot is notably smaller. The other Kingdom Hall is still located in the northeast sector and serves an English congregation and (apparently) a south Pacific foreign language congregation (small - 25 - 40 members).

The last time my neighborhood was visited by JWs was the spring of 2017. The only reason I know that is because my Arlo security cameras recorded a white SUV with about 5 people inside passing by at least ten times one morning around 11 AM. A couple of times the vehicle would stop across the street or a few houses down and just sit there for 5 to 10 minutes and then proceed. No one got in or out of the vehicle during that time. Then the vehicle would leave the area only to return again about 10 or 20 minutes later.

Finally, after just sitting at the curb across the street from my home, two JWs got out and crossed over to my side of the street. About 5 minutes later a young woman in her early 20s and an older man in his 60s got out of the vehicle and crossed over to my driveway. Then they stood there talking to each other for about 10 minutes before going to my neighbor's house to the east (he is a Lutheran minister). A few minutes later they returned to my driveway and looked at my house for a few minutes. The young woman checked her notes and apparently saw that my house was marked as problematic in some way. She told the older gentleman that they should skip my house and go to the one at the end of the block next to mine.

The older gentleman followed the young lady to my other neighbor. My camera recorded their knocking and some of the conversation (unintelligible). No one answered the door - but they remained there for about 8 minutes. Then they returned and passed by my house. The older gentleman suddenly turned to go up my driveway. The young woman immediately reminded him that they should not go to my home because it was on their list to avoid. He was clearly confused and made another attempt to come to my door. But she grabbed his coat sleeve and led him back to the waiting SUV (with three inactive JWs sitting inside). The vehicle just sat there for about 10 minutes before finally pulling away. About 15 minutes later the vehicle once again passed by my house.

This was a classic case of current JWs putting in their time by completely wasting away the clock. Maybe Witnesses have given up on the door to door ministry in recent years as they do not seem to engage with anyone at all anymore. I have watched them downtown fold up their displays and pack their bags as soon as anyone tries to engage them in a meaningful conversation.

My observations seem to prove the point that all of the energy and enthusiasm for the preaching work has left the members and maybe the organization. I don't even get invitations to the circuit and district assemblies that are held every year at our local fairgrounds each September.

All in all, I find this to be a good trend. But I am also surprised that modern JWs have mostly decided to wimp-out and either avoid (or fake) any real or meaningful preaching work. And that would appear to include full and part-time "pioneers" (do they even call them that anymore?) that are supposed to be putting in 70-120 hours a month. How do they get their hours?

I've heard rumors that many "full-time" ministers count their study hours, their Kingdom Hall meeting hours, and time spent sending letters and making phone calls during winter months. If I had been able to count all of those hours when I was a teenaged JW I would have had over 150 hours every month and still worked part-time at a job or going to school.

Bottom line is this: The current versions of the Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses are in general are empty and unenthusiastic about their own religion. The whole concept is now a sham and a total waste of time.

19

Quick Story

by APieceOfShitNamedTate in

so one night i'm at a meeting.

it's the beginning of the meeting and a brother is up on stage introducing the parts for the night.

he's going through the parts and then he says, "...and apieceofshitnamedtate will be handling our bible highlights.".

Juan Viejo2

I gave my first "Sunday" talk when I was still 15 years old - filling in for my father who was scheduled to give the talk but became ill earlier that day. In those days (1959) you would have a fairly complete outline of the scheduled talk, but you would be expected to use your own phrases and expand on it. My father would make some notes and then hand them to me with the standard outline. I typed it all up for him on my typewriter and then underlined sentences and phrases that he should emphasize.

Dad mostly read his speeches. He'd read the first part of a sentence and then look up at the audience and finish. That made for some interesting comments afterward by some of the visitors who were not used to his style. My approach, even at 15, was a lot more polished - or at least I thought so. In those days, Sunday public talks were almost an hour long and could be quite exciting or boring as hell. (Then there was a 15-20 minute break and then we'd do the Watchtower study for most of another hour.)

But there was a problem with my notes. I had the original outline with me, but I had 4 pages of notes and text that I would actually be using for the speech. You can imagine my panic when I realized that Dad had given me only 3 pages of notes AFTER I arrived at the podium. So I had to grab the outline and slip into the "slot" where the missing page would have been. But my typed text was full sized and all caps - and the outline was fairly small print and hard to read - plus I'd have to figure out where on the page I was where the missing section would have been. To say I was in meltdown through most of the talk would be a reasonable assumption.

In those days most Witnesses seemed to be more friendly and understanding - except for some of the old timers who claimed to be "of the Anointed." They tended to be less forgiving and mostly critical of someone in my situation. I often wondered if "love for your brother" didn't leak out them as they got older and closer to their big move uphill to the streets paved with gold that led to Jehovah's castle in the sky. Needless to say, I received some rather scornful looks from several of the older members.

But I survived that experience. When I turned 19 and was newly married, I was assigned to the "exchange" group and was tasked with giving Sunday talks at other Kingdom Halls in our circuit. By that time I had recovered from the disaster that was my first public talk and my reputation and ego had recovered. I was actually pretty good by then and had given enough talks that I could grab an outline, refresh my memory a bit by looking over and highlighting the "important" points where I would gesture with my right hand and carefully, but forcefully emphasize parts whenever I saw the audience begin to doze or seem inattentive.

Thank goodness that those days are far behind me. Even though I could breeze through a talk like those with just a half page of notes now - I simply can not imagine getting up on stage and spending 30 minutes telling lies and total BS. If I could go back in time and undo all of that totally wasted presentation of BS - I would.

Anyone have a spare "time machine" in your garage?

Juan Viejo

519

Tony Morris video footage of him buying a dozen bottles of scotch

by UnshackleTheChains in

i was howling watching cedars latest video of tm111 buying a dozen bottles of scotch ((maccallans scotch).

you can't write this stuff.

right, i'm now off to buy a bottle of maccallans 😂..

Juan Viejo2

An old friend of mine, Richard Kelly, served at Bethel in the 1960s shortly after graduating from high school. In 2008, he wrote an autobiography of his early life growing up as a young Jehovah's Witness and his experiences as a volunteer and resident at the Brooklyn Bethel facilities.

In his autobiography, "Growing Up in Mama's Club" (Third Edition March 2008), he describes one of the first tasks assigned to him on his second day at Bethel:

"After lunch, I went to the Bethel home office and was told that I would be assigned a full-time job within the next few days. In the meantime, I could help with several odd jobs. They sent me to work right away breaking beer, wine, and hard liquor bottles into unrecognizable shards. This was done so that the worldly people who picked up the trash wouldn't see how much alcohol was consumed at Bethel, which was significant. It was explained to me that nothing should be done to bring reproach upon Jehovah's organization."

"By mid-afternoon, with the sounds of breaking glass still reverberating in my head, I was escorted to a nearby five-story brownstone. Here my job was to clean the apartment on the second floor...I realized I was cleaning Hayden Covington's home. He was the Clubs's attorney and a key-note speaker at the international assemblies in 1953 and 1958. But that day, in the presence of his redheaded wife and small children, Covington wore a suit that he must have slept in the night before, looked like he had been drinking, and rattled off expletives ... This was my first exposure to the double standards for the Club's top officials."

Randy Watters, a long time critic of the Watchtower and a publisher of books and websites critiquing Jehovah's Witnesses, also served at the Bethel facilities in the print factory around that same time as Kelly was living there. He too reported that drinking and alcoholism amongst Bethelite at all levels - but especially among the top management - was a major problem.

Even among local congregations, you could see such hypocrisy on display. As I was growing up in the 1950s and '60s, I noticed that for the Memorial service, elders would have a full case of Mogen David Wine (usually 8, 9 or 12 bottles) on hand on "Passover" night. Even in those days when there were a lot more "partakers" because so many of the older members had been JWs going back to the Judge Rutherford days - a single bottle - two at the most - would have met the needs of the those actually claiming to be "anointed" and qualified to partake. Even as a young child and a teenager, I knew that most of that wine was going to be split between the "Servants" [what elders were called in those days] and taken home for private usage. My father even came home one night with three bottles of cheap Mogen David dark red wine and he was the lowest level "servant." among our congregation (assistant magazine and territory servant).

So yes, Rutherford and Covington were known alcoholics, but every Kingdom Hall and every Bethel facility was well-stocked to keep everyone happy and calm. After all, being a JW servant/elder could be a very stressful job.

JV

26

The Anointed Apostate: the Remarkable Sister Pettifog

by TerryWalstrom in

(on the anniversary of my jw best friend's death, i've reached into my archive to replay this incident in his honor)

the remarkable sister *pettifog*.

this morning i arrived on my bicycle at the local starbucks early and took up a seat at the outdoor table in the fresh air.. that’s when it happened--a group of 3 older ladies at one of the other tables outside rose to leave and one of them walked over to my table and spoke directly to me.

Juan Viejo2

Terry Walstrom - you've done it again! Great story. I'm going to print that out and save it in my archives. Boy how I can relate.

In my relatively short time as a JW from age 7 to my very early 20s, I had the privilege to meet several older JW ladies who were very much like the sister you describe in your tale above. They all had serious quirks about them and some were so "different" it was really hard to even relate to them. Here are a few examples:

One older sister was a member of the "anointed" - weren't they all in those days? She was very bossy, especially to young JWs like me. "You didn't polish your shoes. You should polish your shoes every time you come to the Kingdom Hall!" And later when I was a just married young adult I got this round of personal advice: "You should never have married with Armageddon coming so soon. Your faith is weak. Pray that you never have children so that you don't carry that burden." (My new bride of six months was already pregnant.) She would always wear a fur coat at meetings and in door-to-door service; we hated it when she was in our carpool because the windows had to be up even during the hot summers in Southern California. Strange bird. I'm sure she was a favorite of Jehovah's. She was a pain in my butt most of the time.

22

Disfellowshipped/disassociated – How did your parents handle it?

by Richard_I in

to those who were disfellowshipped/disassociated – how did your still-in parents handle it?.

i don’t want to fade, so i am thinking about disassociating soon – i don’t care if i’m playing by the org’s rules, i just want out.. however, i am concerned about how my parents will react.

i don’t want them to become super depressed or whatever due to me leaving the org.. i don’t want them to be hurt by my decision to leave the org, but i feel like there is no way of avoiding this..

Juan Viejo2

Over the years I've discovered that the best way to "disassociate" is just to move to a new town or (preferably) out of state when you can. Then, when you call, write, or otherwise communicate with your family - just keep the calls very short and ask about them. Don't bring up JWs or the Watchtower at any time during your calls or when you send them a card or a letter. Make the calls have one purpose and one only - checking up on them and their health and well-being. If they ask about you, just respond that all is well and that your life is pretty much "the same old same old." If they start asking about anything JW related, just tell them that you've got to go and hang up. They'll eventually get the idea and stop asking. Remember that most parents and relatives really don't want to get themselves into a corner and be forced to "shun" any of their family. For them "ignorance is bliss."

Remember too that the more distant and more difficult for them to visit or get feedback from others about you - the better things will go. Moving frequently helps as well, so if you rent or roommate that will help, at least at the beginning.

On the other hand, if you really detest your JW family members, find them boring and uninteresting, just avoid them and go silent for an extended period. Send them your new address when you move, but give them no other information that might drive their curiosity. Don't share that you are "rooming with a buddy" (male or female) because their first questions will be "male or female" and "are they Jehovah's Witnesses?" They don't need to know. Get yourself a postal mailbox and a generic email address. Tell them that you are very busy, so send you a letter or card or email you if they want to communicate and you will get right back to them.

I realized early on that keeping minimal contact with my family worked better than trying to chat with them every few days or even every month or so. JWs rarely have any new news to share and always want to steer the conversation to "theocratic subjects," so once the questions about health, new babies in the family, and the weather are covered, then consider excusing yourself from the call. I immediately terminate the call (not a hangup - but rather "Good chatting with you. Gotta run.") I find that saying "Talk to you soon" and then getting off the phone quickly works best to avoid a nasty or upsetting end to a call. Always inquire about elderly and sick family members to show that you still care about everyone's well being. Hopefully, they will get the idea that you really do care about them no matter what and they will avoid stepping into a trap of their own making.

I learned a long time ago that my parents and other close relatives would chat with me for as long as it was short and sweet and did not bring up JW issues at all. If they did try to open up that subject, I would just say, "Would love to chat, but really have to go" every time they did that. Guess what - they stopped bringing up the subject reflexively.

Unless you are a real fan of telephone conversations, keep everything in your control by sending them short letters or greeting cards. That way you show them that you still care and think about them frequently. They'll figure it all out eventually and if they truly want to retain some relationship with you, they will observe the unspoken rules and keep their conversations to a minimum and stay on family subjects (health, weather, homestead, new babies, etc.)

Juan Viejo

144

Asylum Caravan

by dubstepped in

alright, so what is the deal with the thousands coming to the states right at election time seeking asylum?

i'm not up on this, usually try not to be, but how can this not be manipulative?

it's either manipulative in the size of the group and pressure that creates, or in where it started or who started this, etc.

Juan Viejo2

This is not the first time this scenario has played out. Have we forgotten that thousands of Jews who were fleeing Europe and almost certain death or years of slavery were treated very much like Trump's plan for the South and Central American refugees heading north looking for some safe haven? Here is a quote from the Smithsonian website regarding the so-called "ship of fools" incident during World War 2:

"With politicians in the U.S. and Europe again calling for refugee bans in the name of national security, it’s easy to see parallels with the history of World War II.

"...although today’s refugee crisis isn’t identical to mass migration in World War II, the past could still offer lessons for the future. They say that this time around, governments should be careful not to rush quickly into new policies.

“Simplistic kinds of answers—close all the doors to refugees, or welcome everyone—are dangerous, and ultimately counter-productive,” says Lipstadt.

Orchard highlights a related worry—“that we'll see short-sighted policies adopted that have real lasting effects.” He believes governments have historically succeeded at screening for refugees, which suggests that national security isn't at odds with welcoming them.

"According to Breitman, the government, the media, and the public all share blame for the backlash against Jewish refugees during World War II. 'I think the media went along with the fears of security-minded people,' he says. Among hundreds of thousands of refugees, there were only a handful of accused spies."

History tends to repeat itself - especially when the lives of poor homeless people are involved. What America has lost is its real sense of empathy for almost anyone that is not white, not native, not English speaking, and not financially secure. Nothing has really changed since the years after the Civil War in the United States when former black slaves, indigenous people (American Indian tribes), and Mexicans living in their homes in Texas, New Mexico and Arizona after the US confiscated those lands from Mexico. Most were treated as stupid, ignorant, and dangerous to the American white invaders. We have not had any wars with Mexico for nearly 100 years. The last major problem we had with our southern neighbors was the short Panamanian war in the late 1980s against dictator Noriega - who was charged with drug trafficking and threatening the canal.

Trump knows that the best way to unite the majority of the country behind him is to be in a war. We all fall in line to support our troops and to protect our homesteads. So, even though very few of us are in any danger of being attacked by Central America refugees, Trump needs to create an "us versus them" situation and painting "them" to be as dangerous (many criminals, diseased, transporting drugs, ignorant and uneducated, thieves, etc.) as possible to engender fear among our youth, oldsters, unemployed men and women, and others that are not fully secure.

I remember when I was a young man living and working in Hollywood. A fairly large number of Jewish families had fled Russia and brought to West Hollywood and parts of Beverly Hills. Most had been taken in by Jewish families and organizations and provided with housing, clothing and some temporary income. But many did not speak a word of English and were uneducated in American culture. Several times a month there would be gangs and crowds of people marching and chanting "send them back" and "we don't want you." This was happening in areas that had large and significant populations of Jewish-Americans. They said the very same thing about those immigrants as our President is now saying about the refugees from Central America.

Who among us (USA / Canada) does not owe our lives, history and standards of living as residents and citizens thanks to the open gates of our adopted countries? Who are we to deny those same privileges to others - not unlike our ancestors - who came to work, pray, have children, and provide for their families?

Juan Viejo (German / Scots-Irish / English / Dutch)